Finally some media outlet did their homework and asked the lds church about these silly questions.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317272,00.html
Justin
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Sorry, I wasn't impressed with this. The only answer I liked was the one about Jesus being in the Western hemisphere because it's written in the BoM (Book of Mormon) so they had to say that (denying it wasn't an option). You also need to look at the definition of the word 'cult' and answer it that way, IMHO. You can't simply say, we don't like that word and no one should be labeled as it. It's a word in every dictionary, and there are cults, whether you like the definition or not. I see that they tried to save face and these were probably hard to answer, but they seemed more generic to me. Hopefully this doesn't offend you.
Darin
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Webster Dictionary:
Cult:
1: formal religious veneration : worship
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious ; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
How does the LDS church measure up? All but definition 4 apply to the Mormon church. How would we classify Jesus Christ and His followers? All but definition 4 match Jesus Christ's teachings and followers. I feel honored to be a member of an organization that matches so closely the church Jesus Christ established, even if it means both are insulted by the name "cult." Pay careful attention to number 3. Although Jesus Christ's teachings and the teachings of the LDS church are not spurious, both have been regarded as such by the orthodoxy of the day. Considering how unorthodox Jesus was in his day, maybe we should be a little cautious about fitting into the mainstream, yet you commonly tell me things like "most Christians would agree..." Wouldn't most Jews have agreed that Jesus was a heretic?
What is the definition of "cult" that you found to be appropriate for labeling the LDS church?
Paul
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You know, I agree that all but number 4 apply to the Mormon church. I guess it would be better classified as ‘not Biblical Christianity’.
Darin
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Darin, let's continue the comparison. You realize that Jesus's teachings would have been classified as non-Biblical. The Jews accused him of blasphemy. Although we agree that Jesus spoke with authority and His teachings actually are in harmony with the Old Testament, the orthodoxy at the time certainly didn't believe that, and the Jews still don't. What do you think about the fact that Jesus and His disciples meet those same definitions of "cult?" You see, words like "cult" are used to scare people, yet no one is specific about what they really mean by it. Now can you see why the church's response to that question was the only appropriate one and not just saving face? Why don't you be specific and tell me what you mean by "cult."
Paul
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Paul, I’ll go into the cult part later, but for now, please realize that Mormonism is not considered Biblical Christianity. Jesus’ teachings ARE all included in Biblical Christianity today, so I don’t understand your point there. Just because Jews don’t consider His teachings in harmony with the OT, doesn’t correlate in my mind with the fact that Mormonism has beliefs that differ immensely from Biblical Christianity.
Darin
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This is one reference about cults I looked at:
http://christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/cults.html
Darin
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Take a look at the defining points they use to classify cults. "How consistent are the group's beliefs with the basic tenets of the historic Christian faith?" " How are power, authority, and control exercised in the group?" Neither one of these is as scary as the word cult. That's why I say that the word "cult" is used to scare people. There is nothing wrong with breaking from the "historic Christian faith." Consider how important the protestant reformation was, and how revolutionary Jesus Christ's teachings were. Both of these examples were breaks from the historic faiths that originated from God's teachings. The second question about power, authority, and control is meant to imply that a group that has structured authority and power will exercise mind control. I find the implication extremely patronizing and insulting. You yourself had attended the church for many year, and I would be extremely surprised if you feel that you had your mind controlled by the church or its leaders. Don't be so convinced by so many outsiders making these speculative claims.
Now, about my analogy with Jesus Christ and His disciples. The Old Testament was given by God and was the foundation for Judaism. God had established a people, a covenant, and a doctrine. Over the years they thought they understood the doctrine all too well. They read into the law a certain way and could not believe that they might be wrong, particularly about the Messiah but also about many other points of doctrine. After all, they had the "Bible" (Old Testament) right in front of them, and scribes spent their lives studying it. They knew what everything meant, or so they thought. When Jesus taught things that were different from what they expected, their minds were shut to the possibility that he could be right. You see, the Old Testament, as long and informative as it was, did not explain everything in perfect clarity. Humility and a soft heart were still necessary.
You are telling me that Mormonism breaks from Biblical Christianity. I disagree. In the words of this website that you showed me, it's really "historic Christianity" that you are contrasting us with (I make the distinction because I believe our beliefs are Biblical, and you believe they aren't). Now do you see the similarity that I'm trying to point out? We're in a situation where the "Christians" feel like they know the correct way to read the Bible, and that the Mormon's (and others) are wrong because they don't believe the same tenets that the Christian scholars have decided are true. I don't think someone who reads the Bible without any other influence will believe the way you do.
Paul
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I agree with the mind control thing….
http://christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/cults.html
Darin
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I don't understand what you're saying (which mind control thing?).
Paul
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http://christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/test-mindcontrol.html
Darin
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Ah.
I'd like to know more about what you agree with. Do you feel that you were subjected to mind control as a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I'll tell you my take on the webpage you just sent me after I hear back from you.
When you decided to leave the LDS church I was very saddened but thought that perhaps after building your faith in Jesus Christ through a variety of experiences you would eventually be reminded of the truthfulness and goodness of the church and what it teaches. As you've strengthened your faith and gotten back into the Bible I've always viewed this as progress in the right direction. I thought that although I was sad you were no longer a member of the church (actually, I thought you'd be a great missionary), you'd at least be able to speak the truth to the Christian world about what the Mormon church is really like. We're certainly not as scary as people like to make us sound. But I've been disappointed because it seems you're willing to completely disregard 17 years of experience and simply believe what others want to about the church. Stand up and tell people what you really experienced.
Here's why I think the Mormon church is sometimes labeled a cult. First, and most importantly, the level of devotion of the members. Quite frankly, it's scary to see people who are willing to give everything for their religion. The Mormon church was like that from the beginning. People sold their houses, packed up, and moved because they believed God wanted it. You always have to reserve a little bit of suspicion for groups like this, but you can't be too fearful of that attitude because certainly God wants us to be that willing and faithful. Even today Mormons sacrifice much of their time and money to do what "the Lord commands." Being a Mormon affects everyday lifestyle much more than other Christian denominations. And you'd be hard-pressed to get most 19-year-olds of any religion out devoting 2 years of their lives to preach (with extremely strict lifestyle requirements).
The second reason why the Mormon church is historically accused of being a cult is because it was such a despised religion 100 years ago. They didn't get along longterm in the Midwest because of a variety of reasons. One significant reason that the Mormons were not accepted in Missouri was because they were opposed to slavery. Also the Mormon church is/was seen as competition by other Christian churches. Certainly the Mormons did things at times that didn't help the situation, like act like they were so righteous and chosen by God. It was a young church with its share of problems. After the Mormons left to Utah, most people back East painted a picture of the Mormons as strange and evil, with rumors spreading wildly.
The last reason I can think of for fear of the Mormon church is the privacy associated with the temples. It's easy to be suspicious that the church keeps dark secrets when there are places they don't let you go. However, you should be one that can speak out about this. You've been inside the temple for baptisms. Even if the experience may not be a particularly sacred one to you, you at least know that we don't have any evil practices inside there. You should speak out about this. And privacy too is not such a foreign thing to Judeo-Christianity. The Jewish temples were equally exclusive.
Paul
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Paul,
I feel like after being in the LDS church, they give people important callings and responsibilities, like a business, and that makes someone feel important. After leaving, some people wanted nothing to do with me, which makes me feel it is even more wrong, and like a gang or the mob, because honestly, that isn’t showing love. When someone leaves our church, we pray for them and make ourselves TOTALLY available for them. Please note that I am not saying I hold a grudge or any anger against the LDS church for this. I feel it is wrong, but I can separate what I think is wrong with the church, and my experience in leaving it. I was completely treated like a traitor at the computer place I worked at while I was first married, which incidentally was the same time that I had my name completely removed from the church records. Then I meet someone in my church around that time who also had their names removed, and their CLOSE friends wouldn’t even look at them in passing. You might rationalize by saying that’s the people’s fault and they shouldn’t have treated people like that, but it seems to be the majority. I realize we still talk, and you haven’t done that to me, and I appreciate it. Learning Christianity has taken a lot of unlearning my Mormon past, because I find that I’m doing things from my heart, such as praying, or taking communion, as opposed to a dead ritual which it was to me.
If you are concerned about me being a missionary for Jesus Christ, you can rest assured knowing that I share my faith in Him with as many people as I can, because He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him, and Him only!
Darin
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Thanks for sharing Darin. I'm am really sorry to hear about your experience (how you were treated). I certainly hope that that's not the way it is in the majority of cases. In our elders quorum presidency (I am second counselor), we continually remind each other to keep our arms outreached for those who have lost their way and to pray for them. I completely agree that that is the only Christian way to deal with our fellow brothers and sisters.
Paul
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Let me say one more thing to add a different perspective about human nature. I am familiar first-hand with countless cases of people who were cast out, even from their immediate families, for joining the Mormon church. I thought it was a unique persecution toward our church, but it's becoming apparent (by what you said) that this kind of behavior is more widespread than that.
Paul
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In my opinion, being cast out of a family for joining any church or religious organization isn’t a persecution towards the church or religious organization, as much as it is a persecution to the individual joining it!!! It ultimately impacts them in a very direct way, right? If my brother became a Muslim, we wouldn’t cast him out or not include him in anything. In other words, our behavior wouldn’t change at all in a negative way, and if anything, we would try to show him love in even more ways. If I’m a Christian and I follow the Bible’s teachings, this pretty much sums up my responsibility to anyone who believes different than I do, being a spiritual matter: Proverbs 25:21-23: 21 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. 22 In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you.
Darin
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Paul,
I have asked you this before, Why do you defend your church? It seems that the mormons are more concerned about their church then about whether or not people know Jesus. I don't go out and preach my church to people, i preach a relationship with Jesus. You go out on missions and try to get people to join your church, not to accept Jesus. You sacrafice your time and money because your church tells you to, not to do what the "Lord Commands". Have you ever felt your leaders are wrong? Have you ever not done something asked of you by your leaders because you felt that isn't biblical? The LDS church has been changing it's mind on what God says for years. It seems to me that God is wrong alot. My church leaders are wrong sometimes so forget my Denomination. I follow Jesus not a religion, not a "prophet". I only care if a person knows and has a relationship with Jesus. Paul, Do you have a relationship with Jesus? Do you know that there is only one way to heaven, into the presence of God? The LDS church is a cult and has poisioned your heart and mind. Cults always look inviting and promising until it's too late. Read up on some other cults(Jim Jones's church, The reformed LDS church, etc) and compare them i guarantee you will find strong similarities.
Joel
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Joel, you spend a lot of time telling me about my church and yet you seem to know so little about it. I went ahead and read about Jim Jones's church, as you suggested (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones). It bares no resemblance to the Mormon church. It was different in its founding (branching out of Disciples of Christ rather than by divine intervention according to Joseph Smith). It's founder was dramatically different than Joseph Smith who never claimed to by Jesus or God and never assumed titles such as "Father." Jim Jones used drugs, exercised homosexuality, etc. It's converts were a completely different profile than the Mormon church converts (70% of Jones's converts were impoverished). And it's deeds were completely different. Within 14 years they displayed their evil deeds. The Lord warned wisely about false prophets as recorded in Matthew 7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Please don't assume you know what I spent my mission doing. Our whole focus is on Jesus and following the Holy Ghost. In fact, the training that missionaries receive would not seem like training to most of the world. They're not told what to say (other than a discussion guide, which is actually quite basic) or how to answer specific questions and present counter arguments. Instead they're told to follow the Spirit, and listen and ask questions to get people to express what they think/feel/are concerned about. We're taught not to ask loaded questions and manipulate but to ask honest question and discuss. We teach people to pray to their Heavenly Father and develop a relationship with the Lord in order to receive guidance through the Holy Ghost. We encourage them to read scripture, including the Bible and Book of Mormon.
There is somewhat of a double standard being applied to what the Mormon missionaries should rightfully teach. I know that you've met with missionaries before, so you are familiar with their work a little. You'll recall that they talked about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon among other things. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ, but there is a foundation of faith building knowledge that should be acquired, which is why we all study the old testament even though it doesn't directly talk about Jesus. Darin criticized recently that the Mormon church advertises the Bible and builds on common beliefs when teaching instead of directly going in to the things that set our church apart. On the other hand, you are suggesting that missionaries need to stick with the central message of the Gospel. I agree with both. It's somewhat of a catch 22.
Your main question was why do I spend time defending my church. This particular discussion was brought on by Darin who implied that the church was a cult, which apparently means something bad. I feel like this is the Lord's church and authority, and it is right to stand up for it. It's an institution for nurturing of the Lord's disciples and carrying out the Lord's work. I'm proud of it. The church does come under attack a lot---I'm reminded of conversations with you during wrestling matches and others times in high school. I'll tell you one thing though. I have never heard anyone speak from the pulpit about any other church. It simply doesn't apply to the purpose of our church meetings. On the other hand, I believe the Mormon church does come up in many protestant church meetings.
I have never felt that a was taught something anti-Biblical (against the Bible teachings) by church leaders, accept minor things that a local level (for example, Sunday school teachers or even Bishops). I've certainly thought that people aren't necessarily doing things the best way, and I'm willing to believe that apostles and prophets even make mistakes. Look at Jonah; not exactly the role model prophet. In fact, there are some things in the writings of Paul the Apostle that I can't quite figure out (they don't seem to click with my understanding of God). Our church does not teach people not to question authority. They actively teach church members to gain their own testimony through prayer and study of the principles that they're taught. But you're right that it is a fine line in our church, since we are a very cooperation and obedience driven church.
If you won't follow a prophet then please remove the 62 books in the Bible that don't directly quote Jesus. Throughout the whole Bible we clearly see that God establishes order in his Kingdom on earth. The Old Testament is extremely orderly, with God's chosen people, the Law of Moses, judges, prophets, temples, ordinances, a priesthood, etc. In the New Testament Jesus restructures the Kingdom. He calls apostles into a group of 12 that reestablishes itself after the loss of a member; he sends them to baptize; he calls 70. All of the writings in the New Testament (pretty much) were correspondences between the church authorities and the local church congregations. God is a God of order. And there is a lot of work still to be done in these last days. In fact, isn't the whole Millennium about Jesus reigning over the Earth in peace. Yes, our personal relationships with Jesus are most important, but we can't be against establishments as a general rule.
Yes, I have a personal relationship with Jesus, but thanks to the encouragement and reminding from both of you, I realize I need to deepen that relationship. I'm grateful to Jesus for his unwavering love, example, and the gift He's given that allows me to repent and return to God clean from my sins, and be exalted as a "joint heir with Christ" (quote from Romans). I'd be interested to know what you do to nurture that relationship. And Darin, what made the difference in your experience taking communion now as opposed to the sacrament you took in the Mormon church?
Paul
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